Socrates: The Sophomore, According to Aristophanes

In this grippingly hilarious and disturbingly raunchy tale of conniving, foolishness, wisdom, and impiety, there is a sense of absurdity that “clouds” the entire story. Aristophanes presents Socrates as an esoteric fool who “[treads] the air, as [he] contemplates the sun.” The Socrates of Aristophanes’ Clouds is nothing short of a babbling buffoon as he spouts nonsense such as “bassinettes” and “fowlettes” and how men with feminine names are not really men at all. Of course as the entire story is a comedy, the babblings are deemed worthy and significant and Socrates is marked as ingenious and noteworthy, for a time.
There is no conclusive evidence that points that Socrates is necessarily a bad person. What he does is out of his desire to learn and rethink old ideas. He wishes to “mix [his] thoughts with the [celestial phenomena]” and think on “lofty things” but shows no real interest in those who wish to learn from him. His lack of patience with Strepsiades, characterizes him as a man that does not genuinely care for his pupils. None of his pupils “has ever shaved, or oiled his skin, or visited the baths…” Their lack of hygiene is another stab at the manner in which Socrates teaches his students. Once again, his character may be neither good nor bad, but his influence is definitely characterized negatively. Strepsiades believes that it is because of Socrates that he is in the pitiful state he is in. Even though it was Strepsiades’ idea to weasel out of paying his debts, everyone needs a scapegoat and Socrates and his students provided an excellent example.
Aristophanes portrays Socrates as a man who is doing nothing of real value with his life. He runs a school where the students are supposed to be learning esoterically but are really just engaging their intellects in the petty discourses of the day or upon any random thought that strays into their minds. Strepsiades is encouraged to just let his mind wander and dwell upon whatever concepts he came across, which is counterintuitive to the Greek method of teaching in that day, and he finds some very absurd solutions to real problems. The usefulness of Socrates is to encourage the nonsensical and trivial, according to Aristophanes. Another fine example is the mention of the two arguments: the Better Argument and the Worse Argument. The Worse Argument turns out to be a better argument than the Better Argument, thus proving the absurdity once more of Socrates and his teaching methods. In the way the two arguments are portrayed, the sensible one is cast aside for the one that allows hedonistic pursuits. This of course just helps prove Aristophanes’ point concerning Socrates and his teachings. We are not supposed to admire what Socrates is doing because in the way he is being portrayed, it is against everything that is sensible to the Greeks at that time. While some of his concepts seem to make sense, such as with the Clouds and thunderbolts, the notion of deities other than the gods and male and female names for objects are outlandish and absurd.
Lastly, I believe Aristophanes presents Socrates in the way that he does because it is a reductio ad absurdum (reduction to the absurd). The strongest case he presents against Socrates is to show what would happen to a person if they would follow the advice of Socrates. This is where the absurdity comes in. Strepsiades needed a way to get out of paying his debts, he tries to learn from Socrates about better and worse arguments, sends his son to learn, his son ends up beating him using the same logic Socrates uses, Strepsiades realizes his mistake and how absurd he was for listening to absurdity in the first place. Reductio ad absurdum is a highly effective form of argument that allows the audience or readers (in this case) to see how foolish the solution is in order to point out the flaw in the argument. In this case, it works very well.

The Fate of Helen of Troy

The fate of Helen of Troy has always been unclear. According to Orestes, son of Agamemnon, Helen was taken to Mount Olympus soon after her arrival back to Argos with Menelaus. Herodotus, a great Greek historian, claimed Helen had never even made it to Troy in the first place. Supposedly, she was sold to the Egyptians when Paris, on his way back from Argos, had been confronted by them. Obviously, there are many stories pertaining to the fate of Helen after the Trojan War; however, there is one that is widely accepted.
When Paris was dying, he was confronted with the question of who would get Helen. As Deiphobus and Helenus, the brothers of Paris, were arguing this over, Paris, in the end, chooses Deiphobus since he had outperformed his brother during the war. Soon after, Deiphobus and Helen get married by force.
Soon after the marriage, the Achaeans prevail and beat down the city of Troy. During the attack, Menelaus and Odysseus catch Helen with Deiphobus. Menelaus then kills Deiphobus, perhaps with the help of Helen, and completely mutilates his body for revenge - cutting his ears, arms, nose, and other body parts entirely off.
When their battle at Troy was nearly over, the Achaeans divide the prisoners of royal blood among themselves, and Helen was returned to Menelaus. Menelaus, still furious at the woman, announces to all his intentions to kill Helen himself for being such an unfaithful wife and starting this disastrous war. However, as Menelaus raised his sword to kill his treacherous spouse, she unexpectedly drops her robe from her shoulders baring her body to him. The sight of Helen’s beauty causes Menelaus to drop the sword from his hands, and, once again, Helen’s beauty captivates Menelaus. He then puts her on the ship and declares his intentions to kill her later.
On their way back home, the Achaeans encounter heavy storms, preventing many, including Menelaus, from making it back safely. Menelaus remained lost at sea with Helen for close to 8 years, having the winds carry them from places such as Crete to Egypt. Finally, both Menelaus and Helen arrive to Argos safely, and Menelaus had practically forgotten about Helen’s deception.
In The Odyssey, Homer briefly states that Helen had, in the end, returned with Menelaus to Sparta, and the couple reigned happily together. Also, it is later written that Menelaus had heard from the sea-god, Proteus, of his and Helen’s fate. Proteus had prophesized that when the time comes, Helen and Menelaus would be sent to the Islands of the Blessed to live forever together, because Helen was a daughter of Zeus and Menelaus was the one she loved.
Although there are many accounts of Helen’s fate, no one knows for certain of what became of “the face that launched a thousand ships.” Of all the stories, only one thing seems certain, and that is who Helen is as a person. In every account, Helen seemed to have stirred up trouble unconsciously by her beauty. After the war, she never seemed to be too devastated about the fact that many had died for her presence. She actually seemed pretty unaffected and did virtually nothing to pay for her part in the calamity of war. So whatever the case, which ever story is true, we do acknowledge one fact for certain – whether a curse or a blessing, Helen was so magnificent in beauty and with that came much power.

Aristophanes' Clouds

Aristophanes’ Clouds is a critique of the educational ideologies of his time.  He employs the exaggerated character of Socrates to show all that is wrong with the educational process and the philosophers who strove to interpret the world through their logic.

 

As an audience, we are first introduced to the character of Strepsiades and the troubles he is having with debtors.  Strepsiades, not knowing where else to turn, decides that the best action to beat his debtors’ claims is through learning the art of argument from a the “thinkery” school, taught by Socrates.  This fact is key to revealing the common perception of philosophers at the time, showing them to be thought as people who could escape the responsibilities of life and the consequences of their actions through the use of less than honest arguments and sly, deceptive reasoning.

 

Several things happen with the plot of Clouds, but the important points are clearly made when Strepsiades visits the school.  Instead of finding great discussions in progress about meaningful actualities, he instead finds all too serious philosophers concerning themselves with trivial things, such as which end of the body a gnat makes sounds with, and practicing absurd techniques such as studying the starts with their behinds.

 

Aristophanes’ then makes a point of ridiculing the great philosopher Socrates, suggesting that he, and possibly all the philosophers of the time, have their heads firmly stuck in the clouds, nearly completely detached from reality and the practical aspects of life.  Though Strepsiades turns to Socrates for help, Socrates instead decides to spite Strepsiades by turning him down and instead accepting his son, Pheidippides, but only in order to teach him the wrong and unjust ways of argument.  Philosophers of this time were thought highly of, and this examples serves as a warning, telling that these seemingly “great” thinkers are themselves flawed and can be easily influenced by unjust ideals and actions.

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Aristophanes' Socrates

Aristophanes’ Socrates: A Man Leading a Revolution in Learning with Absurd Ideas and Methods

“Come, who is this man in this basket?” (line 218) This question, posed by Strepsiades, is the first glimpse of Socrates that Aristophanes reveals to the audience. The student’s response to this question is “Himself” (line 219). Aristophanes, from the very first introduction of the character Socrates, characterizes him as a person unlike any mere human being. In this scene, he is in a hot air balloon so that he can think more clearly, portraying that he is a man who does things quite differently than they are normally done. Aristophanes characterizes Socrates as someone who has the ability to create a group of followers who marvel at him; followers who assume all should know who he is, just like the student expected Strepsiades to automatically know Socrates. Socrates is Aristophanes’ symbol of the new age of education and learning. Aristophanes thought Socrates, and his new school of thought, to be illogical and very much ridiculous.

The mere fact that Aristophanes wrote Clouds as a satire conveys how he did not think this “new age” of learning should be taken seriously. Aristophanes, through Strepsiades’ inability to absorb Socrates’ teachings, shows Socrates’ following to be that of youth and those who do not know any better than to adhere to his teachings. Strepsiades was meant to represent traditions and the “old” way of life. Strepsiades was a farmer who made his living on his land, while those of the “new age” sat in classrooms learning sometimes absurd, seemingly useless things. Strepsiades tried to learn what Socrates was teaching to his followers, but was unable to do so. Partly Strepsiades’ failure was due to the fact that Socrates became frustrated with the old man’s stubbornness and ignorance. At one point Socrates tell Stepsiades, “You’re talking foolishness. Go away. I won’t teach you anymore,” (783-784). Socrates did not want to hear Strepsiades’ arguments against learning his methodologies. Therefore, Socrates was unable to teach the older generation his new ideas, so he forced Strepsiades to send his young son to his school so that he could do the learning with his youthful mind. With Pheidippides, Socrates was able to transform a mind into believing all that he taught him to believe and to think. Socrates, in Clouds, does not seem to be doing something useful with his life and his teachings. He is unable to teach the older minds his new material. Also, he forces those who want to learn to pay for his instruction. He seems to be looking for a profit for all of his new methodologies that he is teaching. Aristophanes’ portrayal of Socrates appears to be one that is not to be admired for much of anything. He only wants to teach those young minds and, because of this, he brings divisions between the old and the new minds. Socrates caused Strepsiades’ and Pheidippides’ relationship to be weak, not as strong as it was before Pheidippides attended Socrates’ school. This makes Socrates somewhat of a bad person. He caused a division in a family that interacted well with each other. Towards the end of the play, Strepsiades bemoans “But nowhere is it the law that the father suffer this,” (line 1420). To this Pheidippides replies “Wasn’t he who first set down this law a man like you and me?” (line 1421). Socrates has taught Pheidippides to have no respect for authority or tradition. Aristophanes shows Socrates to have no desire to reconcile the dichotomy between tradition and new age thought. Socrates seems to only be interested in furthering his ideals, and not respecting or valuing the old way of life.

At the end of the play, Pheidippides has no care for horses, which caused much debt in the family, or for his father, who he loved deeply before going to school. Pheidippides became a totally different person after learning the ideas of Socrates. Aristophanes seems to be warning his audience that this is the danger of the “new” education that has arisen. People like Socrates are planning to revolutionize the minds of the young, which will indeed revolutionize society as a result.

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Mocking Socrates

In Clouds, Aristophanes presents a very comedic representation of Socrates and his teachings. Through the use of Strepsiades and his son Pheidippides and their quest for knowledge from Socrates in order to overcome the heavy amount of debt they have acquired, the audience is introduced to Socrates through the eyes of Aristophanes. However, his view of Socrates cannot be considered entirely accurate, as it is a mockery of Socrates rather than a biographical representation of him. Aristophanes, through his scornful comedy, presents a negative view of Socrates.

In the play, Socrates is the head teacher at the Thinkery, a school where students learn rhetoric and science, and take part in seemingly strange experiments such as determinining how many flea-feet fleas jump. The audience is first introduced to Socrates when Strepsiades, in search of skills to talk his way out of his debts, goes to the Thinkery in hopes of being successfully taught by Socrates. From the start, Aristophanes portrays Socrates in a bad light, greatly parodying him. Socrates floats on to the stage in a basket, in order to “tread on air and contemplate the sun,” effectively floating along with his head in the clouds, completely removed from reality. Aristophanes does allow Socrates some dignity as he begins to instruct Strepsiades with a sense of rationality and intelligence, instructing Strepsiades in atheism by introducing him to the Clouds. However, Socrates soon loses his patience trying to deal with Strepsiades’ ignorance and the two bicker. Socrates does not end up teaching Strepsiades, but, instead, his son Pheidippides. While Socrates agrees to help Strepsiades and his debt problem, this does not make him a good person, but rather something of the opposite. He teaches Pheidippides how to use dishonest speech in order for him and his father to avoid their creditors. Not only that, he influences Pheidippides to hit his own father.

Aristophanes displays great disdain for philosophy, the very thing Socrates is devoting his life to. In Aristophanes’ view, audiences are not meant to admire Socrates’ teachings, but to be amused by the absurdity of them. The first glimpse into Socrates’ teachings within the play is through the words of one of his students, who discusses experiments Socrates conducted to determine whether or not gnats hum from their mouths or their anuses. Then, Strepsiades witnesses students studying the earth with their heads close to the ground, with their asses in the air in order to study the stars. Aristophanes makes such a mockery of philosophical teaching, that a sense of admiration for Socrates is not achieved if knowledge of him is known only through this play. In Aristophanes view, Socrates is not really doing something useful with his life.

Aristophanes paints this picture of Socrates because of his dislike and lack of respect towards philosophy. He parodies Socrates as a compilation of the philosophical and intellectual trends of the times that he did not agree with. His figurative portrayal of Socrates through his comedic play does not offer a true look at who Socrates really was.

Socrates - Head in The Clouds

The seed of arrogance is the perception of self-wisdom. It is in this light that Aristophanes portrays the hopeless Socrates. Socrates is a man bent on arguing the unarguable for the sake of expressing some sense of higher understanding and knowledge. Aristophanes emphasizes Socrates’ detriment to society, exposing Socrates to be a man who teaches men to be idle and weasel their way out of duties and responsibilities. Aristophanes shows Socrates as a man so desperate to speak or discover something profound that he takes to examining the noise made by a gnat. Socrates attempts to convince his students that it is the gnat’s anus that is making the noise. Socrates even throws culture and tradition to the wind in search of some higher self-knowledge and wisdom bragging rights. Socrates says, stupid are those who believe in the gods of old, it is the clouds that hold sway over mankind. We get the idea from Aristophanes that Socrates is pulling thing out of thin air to sound wise.
Socrates is not really a good person or a bad person, he is more aptly a lost person. Socrates is a man with all the knowledge in the world, but he’s got his head in the clouds. In terms of a role model Socrates is a bad person. However, he is a teacher and a pursuer of higher knowledge, two things that describe many good people. The problem is that Socrates has wasted his knowledge on useless, idle things. Socrates’ knowledge could even be described as detrimental, confusing the unjust with the just. He truly is lost in his search for whatever it is he thinks he’s searching for.
With the representation Aristophanes gives us of Socrates, it is safe to say that Socrates is not doing anything useful with his life, but rather he is caught in a web of idleness. Some of Socrates great teachings revolve around twisting words so that unjust becomes just. With these teachings, Socrates feels as though he can look down on others. He has taken the pursuit of higher knowledge to the extreme, and therefore we should not admire him. Ironically, as he searches harder for the profound, he becomes more idle and useless.
Aristophanes does well in his play to satirize the philosophical “work” of Socrates. Some of Socrates’ ponderings are exaggerated to a ridiculous level. Although Greek philosophy often delved into topics seen as useless, it is quite a stretch to believe that philosophers went around asking the question “does the sound a gnat makes come from its mouth or its anus?” In this way Aristophanes makes fun of Socrates and makes him look like a fool. Paradoxically, a man so striving to be wise is seen as a fool. Aristophanes puts together a well developed plot to show what Socrates teachings inspire. Thanks to his portrayal of Socrates, we see just what it looks like to be a useless cloud gazer.

Socrates' Other Side

Aristophanes’ Clouds depicts Socrates as a man who negatively influences those around him and aids to the deterioration of society through leadership. Aristophanes first introduces Socrates at a thinkery at which Socrates presides. This first view imparted was not laced with the sarcasm that became predominant later, but instead just a few comments are made that most would consider inappropriate (potty language). These comments foreshadow the expression of distaste that Aristophanes has for Socrates and his thought processes. Socrates did indeed offer many ideas that were out of the academic norm in his time period, but Aristophanes renders him as a man who pries the beliefs from the multitudes instead of providing alternatives. Socrates takes no time to turn down Strepsiades’ beliefs in the gods with unfounded logic. This is Aristophanes’ way of conveying the idea that Socrates warped the minds of multitudes through clever language that replaced true logic. After all, his thinkery was the go to place to learn such deceit. Strepsiades is easily manipulated by Socrates and continues to comment throughout the story that Vortex overthrew Zeus. His insistence on something he merely misunderstood parallels what Aristophanes believes people take away from Socrates works in that they often do not grasp the bigger picture and get caught up in details. Socrates approach entails a big picture focus in that his “weaker” speech provokes the stronger speaker to frustration due to the removal of focus to the facets of the argument. This approach is sought after by Strepsiades as more important than the stronger speech which relies on logic based on details. Strepsiades asks Socrates to teach Pheidippides the weaker and more deceiving speech if he only has time for one. This yearning for deceit is very immoral and is noted by Aristophanes to be a poor decision that negatively influences society. He notes that Socrates has the potential to guide the masses from developing honest and founded arguments and worries. Humanity is constantly searching for a faster or easier way to complete tasks, and shortcuts such as fraudulent speech could lead society to ruin regardless how clever. Through this position, one can see that Aristophanes deems Socrates methods not only useless, but also potentially harmful. From all my readings on Socrates, I recall no viewpoints oriented as Aristophanes is. His critical analysis is very interesting in that he doesn’t allow Socrates a handicap for the limited scientific knowledge from which he could draw from. He also considers Socrates’ ideas as invalid from the start and downplays his ability to mold the minds of his audience. Aristophanes view of Socrates is similar to Socrates’ out of the ordinary philosophical views. Language is powerful enough to guide masses without any basis whatsoever and without previous knowledge of Socrates, I would have thought him to be a insolent thinker—all due to Aristophanes utilization of humor and clever words.

The Clouds -Ricky Altahif

In the Clouds, Aristophanes presents Socrates in a very negative way. Although he is shown to be wise and insightful, he seems to flaunt his knowledge in a very arrogant manner. He is shown as to have a slight God complex and believes to be smarter than all those who surround him. When he speaks he may be perceived as wise, but after looking back it is seen that much of Socrates’ insight is an effect of constant oversight into a topic. He spends all his free time viewing clouds and questioning problems that are of little or no concern to society today, such as the distance a flea can jump or where the sound of a gnat comes from (which ends up being its anus).
Socrates’ position of being labeled as good or bad seemed to change over the course of the story. He began as calm, intellectual man who is willing to educate his students to the best of his abilities. He seems to think highly of himself, but is willing to help none the less. When faced with the task of educating Strepsiades, who seeks education in order to avoid creditors, Socrates begins to change his characteristics and slowly shift away from his prior calm standing. Due to Strepsiades ignorance, Socrates grows rather impatient and somewhat annoyed throughout the course of the story. He steals Strepsiades clothing as compensation for educating him, which doesn’t seem to be an action that would categorize his as a bad person. Also, Socrates allows Pheidippides to study in his school after Socrates rushes his father out. This shows that Socrates seems to be a rather neutral character, doing actions in favor of both the good and bad sides.
Socrates was a teacher, thus he was using his life usefully. Although some of his teachings and philosophical ponderings were seen as a bit pointless or inefficient, he is able to be a teacher at his thinkery, thus aiding the intellectual growth of the youth. Some may argue that overanalyzing the clouds or measuring the distance a flea can jump is nothing more than wasted time, and they are right. There are times when Socrates chooses to waste his time on things that are seen to be irrelevant. However, his life is teaching students, something that directly leads to a well educated future generation. In doing this he is able to spend his life on something productive rather than waste it on a useless objective.
I believe Aristophanes presents Socrates in the way that he does to portray the stereotype for Philosophers of his time. They were believed to be people who did nothing but waste their time and intellect on impractical matters, and this seemed to be magnified in this selection. They did contribute a great deal to society, but some were initially believed to be heretics, going against most of the beliefs of their time. By showing Socrates in this light, Aristophanes is able to allow the reader to see this from his perspective, with a sense of humor in the background.

Socrates is so smart he's not?

Aristophanes shows Socrates to be a man whose cleverness has led him into a lifestyle so detached from the ethical reality of Greece that the man cannot support himself financially through completely honest means. Before Strepsiades even meets Socrates, a student informs him that they are so poor that Socrates “made away with the cloak from the wrestling school” in order to feed the students (177-179). This revelation also contains another facet of Socrates: he is unwilling to deal with physical realities and necessities until their effects, manifested by starving and complaining students,interrupt his thoughts. Socrates perceives himself as a good and quite wise person, asking the old man to “describe [his] own way to me / so that when I know what sort it is / I may next bring novel devices to bear on you” (478-480), and seemingly willing to go to great lengths for his students and himself; however, reality shows that he is so easily flustered by the father with sub-par reasoning skills that the teacher kicks Strepsiades out of the thinkery. A more common man would bar Pheidippides from learning the art of speech; the great thinker, however, schemes and plans to teach the old fool a lesson through his kid, without obvious care to the risks involved. Socrates' life is a great waste of time; his cleverness results in few productive results, as his mode of thinking is useful for occupying time and for personal gain, neither of which really help society as a whole (in this sense, “usefulness” is defined in respect to society). There is one positive aspect of his thinkery: Socrates teaches the students to consistently question longstanding notions, such as the existence of Zeus (though not supernatural beings in general) and the validity of a system predicated on the notion of age directly correlating with wisdom (as Strepsiades' character negates). Aristophanes presents Socrates as a way to balance the crude ribaldry of Strepsiades with a more subtle humour that makes the play more enjoyable to the middle and upper classes that were likely to see the play. In addition, the failure of Socrates to rise above trickery helps the character stand as the model of how pure intellect does not prevent fallacy—perhaps a point he later wished to make with the judges of the theatrical competition, who would be considered “great” people in their own right.

Side note: when reading this play, I felt the same mix of appalled embarrassment and base laughs from the humor in this play as from Gottfried's rendition of “The Aristocrats.”

Aristophane's Clouds Response Paper

In Aristophanes’ Clouds, Socrates represents the overly strict education in Athens, which does not emphasize honesty, morality and is separate from reality. Socrates is a person who’s eloquent but don’t make good use of his eloquence. And he convinces/argues with people with the wrong reason. From the text, Socrates is a pretty bad person for agreeing to teach Strepsiades and ended up teaching his son, Phiedippides, the way to deliver a speech that would let them escape his debt. As the text described that Strepsiades had trouble paying his debt, it is understandable that Socrates might had been pitying Strepsiades’ inability of paying off debt, but it’s still immoral to not give money back to people who lend the money when one’s desperate in need of money. Therefore, Socrates should not have agreed to teach such speech to make the creditors go away and he should have taught them how one should be appreciate and do mores things in return to repay the one who help them when they were in need.
Though Socrates didn’t handle the Strepsiades’ case well, he is still doing something useful with his life. Socrates founded a school to educate students, though it lacks education on morality and honesty. Education is important; in the case of Socrates, he at least disciplined his students despite the fact of being overly serious. Thus, Socrates is still doing something beneficial to the society by disciplining his students in school. Freedom might have been omitted, rules are needed to do anything and Socrates accomplished such by teaching his student to be serious in school.
Socrates’ initiative of starting his school should be embraced. Even though he’s not providing the proper and moral education to his students, including Strepsiades and his son, he organized a school and tried to teach them speech, which is a good thing since it involves logic thinking and eloquence. However, what Socrates is doing should not be admired, because he’s leading people the wrong way toward wrong argument that is rhetorically sounding but lacks moral values. Instead, Socrates should use his intellect to teach people how to present a right argument that is solid, honest, and righteous. In addition, Socrates should apply the teaching in school to real world along with implementing moral education.
Aristophanes’ Clouds is a comic play that ridicules the Athenian education that is overly strict, dishonest, apart from reality and lacking morality. Aristophanes’ purpose of presenting Socrates in this way to mock the rigid and unpractical the Athenian education is and to wake up the audience to be aware that wrong education can be dangerous. Additionally, Aristophanes is trying to tell the audience that people should have their judgment when receiving education; otherwise education can become dangerous and lead one to the wrong direction when one’s not even aware of like the character Phiedippides in Aristophanes’ Clouds.

Mitchell Miranda

4 February 2009

Aristophanes vs. Socrates

In The Clouds, Aristophanes presents Socrates as a somewhat crazy old man, perhaps not long for this earth. The playwright even goes as far as belittling the man via his immense interest in “how many of its own feet a flea could leap.” Perhaps, in the mind of Aristophanes, the measuring of a flea’s jumping distance is an utter waist of time for such an ingenious man as Socrates. The writer relates Socrates’ belief, or should we say lack there of, in the gods of Olympus; he especially goes as far as to mock the very notion of the almighty Zeus’ existence, the ultimate taboo of ancient Greek ideology. We do hear, however, of Socrates praying to the Clouds, his wondrous goddesses of the sky, who – in his mind– cause the very things that attribute to the existence of man.
In this reader’s opinion, Socrates is a great man worthy of much praise. Even though he is portrayed in a somewhat negative light by the writing of Aristophanes, the writer is still able to recognize the genius of the wise philosopher. Aristophanes presents Socrates as an eccentric, rambling, and at times, off-putting old man, which actually reflects the personality of the real man quite well. One finds it difficult to decide if the actions of such a man are good or bad; all we can say definitively is that his actions are just. Depending on the situation presented, one can conclude that Socrates holds the right answer.
Socrates is most assuredly doing great things with his life. Paramount among all the man’s actions lays his ability to induce his students to think. As we proceed further into the text, we read of Socrates forcing Strepsiades, his old student, into a blanket infested with fleas. Why does he do this? Is it just to taunt the old, unlearned man, or is it something much more significant? We learn that Socrates’ reason for doing this is to make Strepsiades focus his mind on his thoughts, as opposed to his outward pain. One could argue that once one’s mind is in complete focus, all outward distractions – including pain – are meaningless compared to the power of one’s own mind. Pain is but a thought which can be contained.
We are, most certainly, to admire the actions of such a man as Socrates. The philosopher’s intellect alone is worthy of innumerable praise although the man’s actions, at times, appear somewhat strange. Even though the reason for some acts might not always be apparent and, at times, seem quite absurd, the result, nonetheless, is always the same – to prompt his students to think. If one looks at the cultural and ideological traditions of the ancient Greeks, one observes that the unkempt somewhat dirty shoeless appearance of Socrates presents an opposition to what was considered “normal” to the people of the time in which this play was written. The actions of Socrates in this respect present an alternative view of what a man with high intellect should look like.
Lastly, why does Aristophanes show Socrates in such a negative favor? Perhaps he views the man as a complete heretic, going against all the former views and beliefs of the Greek people and condemning the beliefs that these men hold so dear. One could also argue the point that perhaps Aristophanes might have been jealous of Socrates’ political and philosophical success compared to that of his own. Perhaps, too, the playwright could have envied the immense and powerful genius of the renowned philosopher. Then again, one cannot rule out the possibility that, by chance, Aristophanes just did not care for Socrates or his work. No person can oppose the undeniable skill and minds of these two great men, and the indelible mark that they left in the collective annals of humanity.

Aristophanes presents a very abstract Socrates in The Clouds. When he is first introduced, Socrates is sitting in a basket hanging from the ceiling. Strepsiades then asks him what he is doing. Socrates responds with, “ I tread on air and contemplate the sun.” He is portrayed as a new-age/post-modern type of character – one that is absolutely in love with nature.

Socrates’ “gods” are the Clouds. He refutes Strep’s argument for Zeus by arguing that thunder is just a cloud-fart. It’s pretty phenomenal logic. Strep is completely overwhelmed by Socrates’ rhetoric and “compelling” argumentation – so much so that he asks Socrates to teach him how to get away with cheating others. This scene makes the reader question Socrates’ morality.

Socrates is a teacher. He doesn’t, however, care about the content of what he’s teaching his students, or how they’re going to use the knowledge he gives them. A true teacher would have to have a moral fabric, or a least some sense of morality. Socrates doesn’t. Aristophanes’ allows the reader to see his opinion when he delivers the speeches of the “Just” and “Unjust” speeches. Not only do both Aristophanes and Socrates declare the second speech “unjust,” but they also call it the weaker speech. Socrates essentially claims an amoral standpoint here. He inadvertently disregards all virtues and replaces them with an extremely existential and subjective view on the world.

Even though Socrates disregards any essence of morality, the reader must respect him to a certain extent because he is extremely good at his profession. Although I doubt many will argue that he is doing something “useful” with his life, there are those of good stature that could learn a great deal from Socrates. In today’s world, we have the same issues and problems of this “weaker” argument, and too many people disregard the just and virtuous paths for others. If Socrates was to teach a man of reputation and honor, (i.e. a King David figure) than the reader would have a much harder time disregarding Socrates. However, Aristophanes only provides the audience with one example, and in this case, one would be hard-pressed to admire what he was doing.

Aristophanes presents Socrates as a flaming hippie because The Clouds is, above all else, a parody. Aristophanes isn’t necessarily making a moral argument, or even a scholarly argument against Socrates’ teachings, but instead, he chooses to create a sarcastic, humorous hyperbole focusing on the negative consequences that could come from Socrates’ influence... and it is fairly humorous.

Socrates and Aristophanes

Socrates is a man who yearns to make his mind stronger than his body by discounting material things and order to reach a new level of thinking. Socrates discounts typical learning environments and relies on the physical earth to be his teacher. There is ambiguity in determining Socrates as wholly ‘good’ or ‘bad.’ I think rather than being motivated by simply good or bad, Socrates just wants to experience a new realm of thinking and knows that when he wins an argument, for either just or unjust reasons, he has outthought his competitor. Socrates very much encourages his students to pull imaginative thoughts and random facts together to create an answer or strategy from the world around them. There are no physical limits in the mind of Socrates. This is apparent in lines 749-758. As Socrates prods Strepsiades to think more deeply about his loan predicament, Strepsiades suggests buying a Thessalian witch to catch a moon in a round feather box. Without the moon morning will never come and Strepsiades will never have to payback his loans. Although this suggestion is ridiculous, Socrates encourages Strepsiades with a, “Well done!” Socrates is all about thinking out of the box.

Later in Clouds, Just and Unjust have a lengthy conversation in which they describe themselves. Just summarizes his character of respect and lawfulness, while Unjust associates himself with the desires of the flesh and discounting shame and gods. Based on the first impressions and introduction to Socrates, he is identified with Unjust. Socrates does not believe in gods, except Clouds, and finds no shame in teaching people with illegal motives (Strepsiades and Pheidippides). Socrates is not wasting his life, just using it for unjust purposes (unjust based on the standards of this civilization). Socrates is a bad person because he willingly deceives people and persuades them for his own personal delight. Socrates is smitten with the things that his savvy tongue brings him, but finds most pride in his mastery of speech and persuasion. However, Socrates is a good person because he teaches the art of language on behalf of other’s needs. Strepsiades comes to Socrates pleading for help, and after much frustration resolves to help via Pheidippides).

I admire the humorous and imaginative twists of Socrates’ thinking, but he is wasting his time. Intellectual thinking should be valued in companion to seeking knowledge. Socrates and the other Thinkers spend their time observing the world, which many times seems purposeless. I admire Socrates’ desire to approach language in a way different from all others, but do not admire his application of this mastery for unjust causes. Socrates taught Pheidippides how to speak unjustly so that Pheidippides could free his father from debt. Encouraging disobeying the laws is not exactly a “good” trade to teach, but I admire that Socrates challenged his students to think deeply about the law and life.

Aristophanes presents Socrates as a free-spirited thinker, open to thoughtful humor and experiencing life in a new way. Intelligence is usually correlated with aristocracy. Aristophanes uses Socrates’ character to introduce a new type of intelligence and demonstrate the scary reality that, in this life at least, bad may prevail over good (or in this case unjust over just). Besides the issue of morality, Aristophanes presents Socrates to introduce the idea of imaginative thinking. Many aspects of life can be combined to reach a number of solutions. There is never one definitive solution to any given problem. Socrates represents a revolutionary style of thinking, but also what happens to this style of thinking. After Strepsiades is visited by the gods he realizes that Socrates was wrong, gods are real, and is ashamed of thinking otherwise. Strepsiades sets the thinkery aflame and Socrates screams, “I’ll be choked!” while gasping for air through the flames. Strepsiades dashes after Socrates and his students. Socrates’ style of thinking, along with Socrates, is in disagreeance with the laws of society. Strepsiades, who represents just thinking as the majority, attempts to eliminate the minority unjust thinkers. The majority rules.

Response to "The Clouds"

“The Clouds” reveals Aristophanes’ negative view of a certain type of learning—one in which Socrates participates. In a previous class (in seventh grade), we read and admired Socrates’ complex definition and discussion of truth, and his last words before his death. In both philosophical discussions, Socrates’ ability to provoke others’ intellects was readily apparent. This first exposure to Socrates influenced my reading of “The Clouds.” Aristophanes describes a man who supervises an unconventional school, the Thinkery, and its unusual experiments and learning activities. Aristophanes’ satirical writing expresses his negative view of Socrates and the “learning” that takes place at the Thinkery. The only reason Strepsiades brings his son Pheidippides to the Thinkery is because the father wants his son to learn to argue his way out of his debt. The background story to this particular story sets the negative tone of the story. Strepsiades does not bring his son to the school because he desires a learning experience, or because he wants his son to learn from a revolutionary thinker; he brings his son Pheidippides to Socrates because the father is stressed by his son’s debt and thinks Socrates can teach Pheidipides to argue his way out of paying his debt. From this initial situation, the question regarding Aristophanes’ view of Socrates’ morality arises—is someone who defends the guilty a bad person? This initial situation, the reason that Strepsiades brings his son to the Thinkery also addresses the second question, “Is Socrates doing something useful with his life? Again, not only is the morality of Socrates attempting to help Pheidippides is questionable, but the usefulness of this behavior is debateable. Certainly, the other discoveries of the school—measuring a flea’s jump and discovering the source of a gnat’s hum—are essentially useless tidbits of information, but is Socrates’ support of the experience and pursuit of discovery useless? I believe that these questions raised cannot be answered with simple “yes” or “no” responses. Comparing the questions to modern examples can only begin to spark thoughts on the subject, and I will not attempt to make sweeping decisions regarding the morality and usefulness of Socrates’ behavior. While Socrates in Aristophanes’ play is not meant to be admired (his negative qualities are repeatedly emphasized), I cannot help but admire the originality and boundless curiosity of the philosopher. I definitely understand that my view of Socrates is influenced by my previous exposure to his work, but I still have a hard time looking as critically on Socrates as Aristophanes presents him. Perhaps Aristophanes depicts Socrates in this satirical way for purely artistic effect, and he was just trying to entertain an audience. Or, perhaps he truly believed his characterization of Socrates and was not disturbed that this play ultimately contributed to bringing Socrates’ death.

THE CLOUDS

The Clouds

Socrates in Aristophanes “The Clouds” is viewed liked how people of his time viewed people of intellect to be. Socrates is shown to be an arrogant, all knowing jerk that seems to only be interested in spending his days looking at clouds and thinking and then taking his students clothes for teaching them. Aristotle represents how the common Greek of this time saw an intellectual someone that made no sense to them because all they seemed to say had no backing at all.

In the story it seemed that Socrates was not a bad person but not a good person either. He was more than anything just a person that did both good and bad things. For example he did take Strepsiades clothes which he saw as the price for teaching him which he later did not do because Strepsiades was too old and stupid. But he also did later teach his son how to help the poor farmer get out from under their debt when Strepsiades asked him too.

Was what Socrates doing in his life admirable or even worth doing in the first place? It seems to be very admirable because he as a teacher does truly believe in what he is teaching to his students. Such as when he talks to Strepsiades about the clouds and all they do. He seems to truly believe all he is telling his prospective student. It seems that it is worth doing what Socrates is doing to himself because he believes he is gaining useful knowledge about everything.

Aristophanes presents Socrates like a person of intellect for comedy and to show how intellect is important to a person. First it is very comedic how intellectual Socrates made everything for example calling a female duck a duck is wrong they are duchess because it has to have a feminine ending. Second Aristophanes shows how intellect is important to have intellect because if you don’t you can get taken advantage of by those that do have intellect.

In the end Aristophanes Socrates showed well what his society thought of intellect. That most people did not think highly of people who spent their life in the pursuit of knowledge. But that the pursuit of knowledge is an admirable pursuit anyway and is well worth spending your whole life doing to better the world. It also showed well the comedic value that an overly intellectual individual which is still a type of character used in today’s comedies. But most of all he taught us that it is important to have an intellect because if we don’t we will get taken advantage of by those that do.

Christopher Aitken

Socrates as portrayed in The Clouds

As evidenced in his text, The Clouds, Aristophanes was a very witty and comical writer. In The Clouds, Socrates is very sarcastically portrayed. Many of the characteristics of Aristophanes’ Socrates and Plato’s Socrates are very different. In The Clouds, Socrates is a sophisticated atheist with a quick temper and a lack of patience. Socrates is in charge of the “Thinkery.” He is not a teacher, but merely an overseer of the facility. The members of the “Thinkery” have a very materialistic take on the ideas of the world. According to Socrates, the gods do not exist. Aristophanes uses the character Strepsiades, a difficult and narrow minded student, to bring out the impatience in Socrates. Socrates isn’t understanding or patient in the least with this student. Socrates is easily frustrated by Strepsiades’ inability to grasp the concepts taught in the “Thinkery.” The quick temper of Socrates is best exemplified in the second scene of the text. Socrates is extremely disgruntled by Strepsiades’ ignorance. He is very demanding and harsh in his tone towards Strepsiades. Socrates expresses no tolerance for unintelligence. As for Socrates’ moral characterization it was hard to decipher his moral character as being either good or bad. Aristophanes’ humorous depiction of Socrates leads the reader to believe that he intended for the reader to interpret Socrates as a bad person. However the reader has a hard time thinking of him as a bad person because in the back of an informed reader’s mind he/she might be thinking about the real Socrates, an ingenious philosopher and great teacher. There was never a concrete statement or specific passage in the text in which Aristophanes directly targeted Socrates as a bad person. The only place where a case for a “morally bad Socrates” comes out is in the second scene when he is so quick to give up on his student, Strepsiades. Although Aristophanes’ diction casts a negative light on the character of Socrates, he never directly accuses or scorns Socrates’ teachings or his value as a person. The “just” and “unjust” methods of thinking are juxtaposed to one another in this text. The “just” and “unjust” verbally battle one another in front of Pheidippides. It seems as though Socrates does not choose one side or the other. He leaves it up to the students of the “Thinkery,” to decide for themselves which path to follow, that of the “just” or “unjust.” I think that it was the intention of Aristophanes for the readers not to admire the work of Socrates. The sarcasm associated with Socrates makes it hard to respect or admire his work within the “Thinkery.” Socrates is not labeled as a teacher to the students himself; he is simply described as presiding over the establishment. He is not doing something useful with his life because he is sabotaging the minds of young thinkers. The purpose of the “Thinkery,” over which Socrates presides, is to spread the idea of a materialistic outlook of the world. Therefore the work of Socrates is not something to be admired. I think that Aristophanes portrays Socrates in such a humorous and satirical light because he wanted to describe Socrates in a way that had not been presented by anyone else of that time period. Aristophanes’ humor is what makes The Clouds enjoyable to read and different from any other texts about the work and life of Socrates.

Socrates' Interesting Point of View

Throughout The Clouds Aristophanes presents Socrates in a way that makes his life look like a large waste of time. During the story, Strepsiades learns that Socrates believes that the clouds are the real divine power, and not the gods. Strepsiades finally realizes that this is ridiculous, and that Socrates has just been wasting his time thinking into things way too much. In this way, Aristophanes makes Socrates look like a fool who is wasting his life searching for answers. Examples of this are also present in Aristophanes' questions. The questions that he asks Strepsiades are of no use to everyday life, and there is no reason that anyone would need to know these things to be successful in life. Socrates is presented to have wasted his life learning useless facts that aren't necessary to be considered intelligent. The fact that Socrates knows the names of the males and females of each species of many animals, and that he tries to create names for each when there is actually no difference in the given name, is one of the ways that Aristophanes criticizes the way that Socrates spends his time. Aristophanes believes that we should not admire what Socrates is doing, because it is almost comical, as presented in The Clouds, and his work consists of useless information that has been over-analyzed by him. He believes that we should not admire someone who has supposedly done nothing useful with their life. I believe that this point of view comes from Aristophanes' own religious beliefs. He is biased towards his own views and thinks that any view that differs greatly from his is simply ridiculous. This is somewhat understandable, considering that his belief in the gods in heaven was one of the most common beliefs of his time, and the thought of clouds being in control of everything that happened in the sky, and them overtaking the gods in heaven would seem completely outrageous in comparison with this view. I think that Aristophanes presents Socrates in this way because he disagreed with Socrates' views of the gods, and he believed that it was foolish to spend your time praising and talking to objects that exist in the sky and not in the heavens.

What Happened to Helen?

We know the beginning; Paris seduces Helen and she returns with him to Troy. One thing led to another, and the situation deteriorates into an all-out war between Troy and Greece. After ten long years of battle, Greece is victorious, Troy is razed to the ground, and the Greeks go home to celebrate. Good story, but it leaves out a key detail. What befell the woman who started it all? Whatever happened to Helen of Troy?
There are different versions of the story. In one narrative, Helen and Menelaus were reunited, and together they sailed back to Sparta where Helen was made queen. A different account claims that Menelaus forced Helen to come back with him to Greece, where she was kept locked in a cage for the rest of her life.1
One account even goes so far as to say that Helen became immortal after the war. This version claims that Helen went back with Menelaus to Greece. When Orestes, son of Agamemnon and Clytaemnestra, was on trial for murdering his mother and her lover Aegisthus, Orestes begged Menelaus to help him. When Orestes was denied help from Menelaus, Orestes attempted to murder Helen. Apollo rescued her and took her with him to heaven, saying, “Helen I will conduct to the mansion of Zeus; there men shall adore her, a goddess enthroned beside Hera and Hebe… There she…shall be worshipped for ever with wine outpoured.”2 This is a more fanciful interpretation of what likely happened, but it still provides an interesting story.
Another tale says that Helen and Menelaus were reunited after the war and left for Sparta. The trip was delayed because, according to the tale, the gods were angry at Helen for causing the war and caused their ship to be blown off course so that their arrival at Sparta was delayed by a few years.3 This narrative matches up with the account from Aeschylus which also claims that Menelaus was delayed in his arrival by a storm.
One thing these accounts all seem to have in common is that Menelaus and Helen may have reunited after the war was over. Whether they were on good terms or not is hard to determine because the stories are all different. According to the movie Troy, Menelaus was slain, therefore matching none of the above narratives. Since there are more accounts that Menelaus was alive, and Hollywood film writers do not always check their facts, it is likely that Menelaus did indeed survive the war, and also plausible that Helen and Menelaus at the very least saw each other at the end of the war. What really happened is lost to history, but since there are many different versions and none can be factually proven, the reader may choose their own version of the tale.










1http://www.arthistory.sbc.edu/imageswomen/papers/hamiltonhelen/helenoftroy.html
2http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Helen.html (Apollo. Euripides, Orestes 1685)3http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Go-Hi/Helen-of-Troy.html

Aristophanes and Socrates: Your Prompt

What is the view of Socrates that Aristophanes presents in The Clouds? Is Socrates a good person, a bad person, or what? Is Socrates doing something useful with his life? Are we to admire what he is doing? Finally, why do you think Aristophanes presents Socrates in the way he does?

Clouds Response Paper Instructions

In a short paper of no more than 1 ½ double-spaced pages (approximately 650 words), answer the questions below. You must post your paper to the blog site by 9:30 on Thursday, February 5th:

Then, by Thursday (Feb 5th) at 10:45 a.m., you must respond to at least one person’s blog post by clicking on the “comments” button and typing your response into the blog. Your response need not be long, but feel free to expand. 150-200 words will do it. Be sure to include your name at the bottom of your response.